AoW 17: Community Organizing Never Looked So Good
By Sara Rimer
George Ruhe for The New York Times
Rylan Truman is following a career path that has been lightly traveled: Community Organizer.
Sally Ryan for The New York Times
Quinn Rallins, whose father grew up in Altgeld Gardens, a public housing development in Chicago where Barack Obama was a community organizer. Mr. Rallins wants to do similar work in Brockton, Mass.
Obama for America, via European Pressphoto Agency
Barack Obama went from law school to lead a voter registration drive in Chicago.
Jodi Hilton for The New York Times
Marshall Ganz leads a Harvard workshop.
J. Emilio Flores for The New York Times
Drea Chicas wants to be a community organizer after she graduates college.
Jodi Hilton for The New York Times
Patrick Hidalgo is taking Marshall Ganz's community organizing class at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government.
Jodi Hilton for The New York Times
Josh Daneshforooz founded All Nations Education, which organizes students in the United States to help young people in the third world go to college.
J. Emilio Flores for The New York Times
Margot Seigle, a graduating senior at Occidental College, works with children on math literacy in the Highland Park section of Los Angeles.
QUINN RALLINS, 23, graduated magna cum laude last year from Morehouse College with a dual major in international studies and Spanish. This spring, Mr. Rallins is finishing his master’s degree in comparative social policy at Oxford. He has analyzed research for the Rand Corporation in England, led workshops in Malaysia for Amnesty International and founded an organization to help orphans in the Dominican Republic.
His next step? Top financial and technology companies and nonprofit groups have expressed interest in hiring him. Even in this economy, he has options.
But Mr. Rallins wants to be a community organizer — just like the world’s most famous one, Barack Obama.
Mr. Rallins says he hopes to win a job with PICO, a national faith-based organization. He is applying for a position in Brockton, Mass., an industrial city battered by the state’s highest foreclosure rate, the loss of most of its major manufacturing jobs and dwindling state resources. Starting annual salary is about $35,000.
“My mentor at Morehouse says that at the end of the day, it’s not about how much money you make, it’s about the lives you’ve impacted and the stories you have,” Mr. Rallins said.
He is not alone.
A job that has not been all that alluring to college graduates is in resurgence, according to leading community organizers and educators. Once thought of as a destination for lefty radicals committed to living lives of low pay, frustration and bitter burnout, community organizing is now seen by many young people an exciting career.
With their jobs, students envision helping communities address urgent issues — economics or the environment, education or social justice — while developing leadership skills. And these jobs, students say, can actually lead to ... well, you know.
“Community organizing has become cool,” said Marshall Ganz, who dropped out of Harvard in 1964 to join the civil rights movement in Mississippi and spent 16 years with Cesar Chavez and the United Farm Workers. Of course, a tough economy helps attract people to professions they might not have otherwise considered, as does a crusading time when Wall Street has become a symbol of greed, arrogance and irresponsibility.
But the turnabout in popularity is still quite remarkable. Last fall, 200 people, the overwhelming majority of them in their 20s, applied for a single community organizing job at a PICO affiliate in San Diego County, said Stephanie Gut, a PICO director. The salary would be about $35,000 to $40,000, plus health benefits.
In the past, there might have been 25 to 30 applicants for a job that involves developing grass-roots leaders in church congregations to work on a variety of social issues, Ms. Gut said. Although a sagging economy may have had something to do with the number, it couldn’t account for all the interest.
Two years ago, 250 applied for 26 paid summer community organizing internships at the Center for Community Change in Washington. Last summer, there were 1,200 applicants for 65 paid internships and fellowships.
Colleges are also seeing more interest in courses along those lines. Peter Dreier, a politics professor at Occidental College, says he usually has 20 to 25 students in his community organizing class. So far, 42 students have registered for next fall.
“I haven’t become any more popular as a professor,” said Mr. Dreier, who directs the Urban and Environmental Policy Program at Occidental. “So the increased enrollment must have something to do with the political climate, student interest in organizing and the impact of Obama.”
Certainly, there is an Obama effect. Through his presidential campaign and in his memoir, “Dreams From My Father,” Mr. Obama managed to glamorize and, more important, explain community organizing. He wrote about meeting with people in their homes and churches, listening to their stories, the failures and small victories.
“Before, you’d talk to young people about community organizing and they wouldn’t have a clue what you were talking about,” said Susan Chinn, a longtime community organizer who started the internship program at the Center for Community Change.
“Community-based organizations have not done a very good job of marketing this work to a broad swath of people across the country.”
But they now have had a presidential campaign full of free advertising, and they want to capitalize. “We tell them, ‘Obviously there’s a lot you can do with it,’ ” said Robert Fisher, who teaches community organizing at the graduate school of social work at the University of Connecticut, Hartford. “And now we have the punch line: ‘Now you can be president.’ ”
Mr. Rallins of Morehouse College grew up on Chicago’s South Side, where his father came of age in the Altgeld Gardens, the same housing project where Mr. Obama once worked as an organizer. And Mr. Rallins, who wrote about his ambition to persevere, achieve, serve and see the world in his essay, “The Audacity of Hunger,” seems well aware of the parallel and the potential.
Mr. Obama “said it was the best education he ever had,” Mr. Rallins said. “Young people, they’re looking for certain intangible skills. They see the experience Obama got from community organizing — his concern, the way he relates with everyday people.”
Mr. Rallins said he became committed to the job while working with other Morehouse students in New Orleans in the demolished Ninth Ward after Hurricane Katrina.
“That’s where my heart is right now,” Mr. Rallins said.
Rylan Truman, 27, will graduate this spring with a master’s degree in social work, with a concentration in community organizing, from the school of social work in Hartford. “I would like to be able to organize parents in low-income jobs around their children’s schools,” she said.
But she doesn’t have a job.
“My graduating now is poor timing because of the economic situation,” she said. “A lot of community organizing jobs are the first to get cut.”
Even if these young adults became paid organizers, there is no guarantee that they will stick with it. They, like Mr. Obama, might eventually become frustrated about the lack of progress. After all, Mr. Obama himself left with few victories in his pocket, deciding that prospects for real change lay elsewhere.
Post: TAKE A STAND à BE PERSUASIVE!
- Respond to the questions on the bottom of each AoW or post an original response. Use text evidence to support your response.
- Reply (comment) to a teammate's response Summarize the argument made then add your own thoughts and evidence. Finally, post a question to keep the conversation going. Use text evidence to support your response.
Answer any of the following questions:
- Would you be willing be a community organizer? Why or why not? What social issue is most important to you? Why?
- What is the most important factor in getting a job? Money? Helping others? Explain and support your response.
- What social issues affect Washington Heights? Support your response with facts and statistics.
The most important factor in getting a job is helping others because is more important then getting money.
ReplyDeleteThe most important factors towards applying for a job is to have experience in what you are applying for. Like experimenting other things before you settle into the job you would like to do. For example, Barack Obama was a community based organizer before he ran for president and became president. “But Mr. Rallins wants to be a community organizer — just like the world’s most famous one, Barack Obama.” This comes to show that people have to build their background in doing things in order to have the job that relates in a higher level, to be able to manage it and handle it.
ReplyDeleteThe most important factor is getting people into jobs. Its important because they need a job in order to get money and also being responsible. Also there is people that need jobs because they dont have food or clothes.
ReplyDeleteI would be willing to be a community organizer. I would like to have available arts and crafts for little kids and art workshops for potential artist. Even though this all sound good and a service would be given to others, there is a down side. Mr. Obama, might eventually become frustrated about the lack of progress. After all, Mr. Obama himself left with few victories in his pocket, deciding that prospects for real change lay elsewhere(last paragraph of aow). This show that things might not happen when you want it and things might not happen at all. I would not like to be in this situation. I am very impatient. CBO'S can change many peoples lives, the thing is you need the right person in charge.
ReplyDeletei would be willing to a community organizer. I would love to work with children to give them better lives, the live they deserve.I believe the most important factor in getting a job is finding a job that benefits the entire community. You should be able to help others while still be doing something that you love and care for.their are many issues affecting Washington Heights today. for example, child abuse and neglect. About 10,440 children die each year due to child abuse or neglect taken from federal data. (http://www.everychildmatters.org/national-activities/child-abuse-and-neglect-fatalities?gclid=CPzt0vLWh7cCFUHe4AodDQwArQ).there are many social issues affecting many places in the world.
ReplyDeleteXiomicell,
DeleteI agree that giving back to the community is a great way to spend a career. While these jobs may not always offer lots of money, the idea of helping others to make society a better place is a great reward!
That is a startling statistic about child abuse. Do folks agree that child abuse is a major problem in NYC? Why or why not? What other statistics are out there that may be surprising about social issues you care about? Discuss!
I would be willing to be a community organizer. I would love to work to help people in need and that are homeless because everyone deserves to have a safe place to stay and feel secure. I would like to help them get back on their feet and reduce the statistic that each year over 100,000 New Yorkers experience homelessness. Homelessness is one of the biggest issues in Washington Heights I see people every day going through this and it breaks my heart to know that they might go through days without eating and aren't even sure when their next meal might be or if a huge storm struck they won't have a place to stay to keep dry. I believe that the most important factor in getting a job is finding a job that will not only benefit you because you like doing it so much but also improving the lives of others because you wouldnt want to be in a situation like that and you would want to give back to your community. Homelessness is one of the biggest issues not only affecting Washington Heights but it is also affecting people all around the world.
ReplyDeleteI would be willing to be a community organizer because it's better to have peace and help from one another in the world rather than be stressed and arguing over how much money you make or have to pay. It's better to help people in the world fix their issues rather than continue them
ReplyDeleteI strongelly agree with the decision this man is making . I will also be willing to be a community organizer.I would love to help kids & adults who are in need and need help getting educated or health problems.I believe everybody has dreams & i think what this man is doing is open the doors for this people for there dreams to come true.
ReplyDeleteFrom my point of view of the situation, I would be willing to be a community organizer. Just personally because I would love to help people out, especially kids. Kids can’t choose what life they want to live that’s their parents choice until their young adults but one there at the age when they could start making decisions to live the life they want and deserve. I believe that the most important factor in finding a job is that is suitable for you, that’s something that you enjoy and that will let you help out our community with certain needs, you should be able to help other while doing something that you love to do, and it shouldn’t be something your force to. There are many things affect our community and does in it. For example, homeless people they don’t have a home or a place to stay so they have to live in the streets. Some people make the wrong choice of things like drugs which is why they get left behind in the streets but there are certain charities and organizations that could help does needs they need to boost them back on their feet. For example, The Fortune Society which help people with employment, housing, education, alternatives to incarceration, and much more. It gives them that boost that they need.
ReplyDeleteThe most important factor in getting a job is that it gets you your money for what you need in life. This means for your possible kids, also for buying food and clothes for yourself. Its also important to help others to show that you care about others and not only your self.
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ReplyDeleteI would be willing to become a community organizer.It would give me a way to communicate with a varity of people and get to know their situations and how I can help them. Also, just like President Obama, I might get not only the experince I need but also the support from those I help through community organization to become a worthy employee and competion for all the others appling for the same job as me since when employers look for people to hire they'll usually choose someone who has had prior working experience and/or would make a good fit for their buisness such as Quinn Rallins who graduated from college with a daul majors in international studies and spanish and is finishing his masters degree in comparative social policy at Oxford.He has led workshops in Malaysia for Amnestry International and funded an organization helping the needy in the Dominican Republic.And already has options for his next steps in life(information taken from "Community Organizing Never Looked So Good" by Sara Rimer).
ReplyDeleteI would be willing to be a community organizer. I would be willing to be community organizer because, "At the end of the day, it’s not about how much money you make, it’s about the lives you’ve impacted and the stories you have,” as said by Mr. Rallins. This means that I am willing to give up my time to help others in my community. Some social issues that are important to me is stopping bullying. One reason is that “Who gets harmed by bullying? Bullying behavior harms both the victim and perpetrator. If a child experiences chronic intimidation, he or she may learn to expect this from others. When a child or teen is mean to another it is important to look for patterns and motivations. If he or she is allowed to continue the behavior it becomes habitual. He becomes more likely to surround himself with friends who condone and promote aggressive behavior. He may not develop a mature sense of justice. If he intimidates others to cover up his own insecurities, his own anxiety may increase.”(Carol Watkins, M.D.) This shows how bullying not only affects the victim but also there surrounding. This is important because it harms the community and its people. In conclusion, i would like to be a community organizer to help shape a better world for the future.
ReplyDeleteI would be a community organizer. I feel that giving back to the community is something good to do. I like to help others and I’ll feel happy doing something I actually enjoy. But sometimes the community you help doesn’t do anything back. For example, you help your community and then nobody sees your hard work. That’s something bad about being a community organizer. In the article it says, “Even if these young adults became paid organizers, there is no guarantee that they will stick with it.” This does make sense because there comes a certain time when you help but you get tired because no one does anything back for you. I would be a community organizer but I wouldn’t make it a full time thing. I would make it as my hobby, because in the end all that matters is that you helped in some type of way and someone else will benefit from it. Like if I were a community organizer, I would help animals that have been abused. Even if I don’t get paid much to help, I would feel happy because I helped with something that I feel is a problem that needs to be fixed. So in conclusion, I would be a community organizer since I like to give back but I wouldn’t really make it something that interferes a lot with my life. I would do this as a hobby since I enjoy helping my community.
ReplyDeleteI would be willing to be a community organizer. For example, I am willing to put the things I have to do on the side so that I can help others in my community. Also, "At the end of the day, it's not about how much money you make, it's about the lives you've impacted," said by Mr. Rallins. This quote is important to me because by helping others , it can change their lives as well as it can show how people care. Also some social issues that are important to me is child abuse. Why abuse the kids, if their the soon to be the next generations of humans? Also would you like if someone is abusing your kid? I think not. Sometimes you must put issues in a way of if you would like it if it had been happening to you. Also an example of an organization that deals with the social issue Child Abuse is the New York Center for Children. This organization helps with those who have been abused. It also helps with the recovery of the kids who have been abused with special programs. Therefore, if everyone helps with child abuse it can change a lot in the future. In conclusion, if everyone works together to try and help with child abuse the next generation in the future can be very successful people and then teach their own kids what is expected of them.
ReplyDeleteI would be willing to be a community organizer. One way is that if people that help the community actually care where they live and really want to make a change in the community. Also they like to make the place there they live a better place. The most important issue would be about kids. This is important because it is the future of tomorrow so if we get to make them do positive things as they get older the could pass on their experiences with other kids in the future.The most important factor of getting a job is to help your family and take them to make good decision in life. Also the value of money is that it is to help others in life and to have a better life to be comfortable to what they need. Lastly the value of helping others is that it would help others and the feeling that you helped someone and did something positive to change their lives.
ReplyDeleteI would be willing to be a community organizer. Why? because everybody has a purpose to be in it, and it would be good to help citizens in our community have what they need. Including jobs. Some people disagree with this idea, but is a good one because there's many unemployed that are looking for Jobs. I think everybody has a reason to stand up for what they believe in. If i was a community organizer I would help others and help people get back what they need.
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ReplyDeleteIn my perspective the most important factor in getting a job is what Mr.Rallins said"My mentor at Morehouse says that at the end of the day, it's not about how much money you make , it's about the lives you've impacted and the stories you have "Mr.Rallins. Also yes I know money matters but not as much as it would matter to actually help someone you meet or impact someones life without you even knowing . This is why I think it doesn't matter what job you have as long as its something that could make change because money is not everything in life.
ReplyDeleteFrom my point of view i would be willing to be a community organizer. One social issue that i really support and will be willing to work for is Helping families that need money/food/clothe/jobs. The reason why i really care about this social issue is because in the community of Washington heights people are in need of things like jobs and money, because of the fact that our economy is on a wrong path, families don't have that much money to support their families with needed materials. Also in Washington Heights, were some kids grow up in bad neighbors were they see drugs being sold everyday in their face, were violence is part of their daily life. When money & and support are needed they don't have that. So is very important for us to work together a BIG community to support families and the kids of tommorow.
ReplyDeleteTo me, i would be willing to become a community organizer because I feel like other people should be able to feel safe in their community. The social issue i feel is most important to me is child abuse, because i feel that it is not right that children have to live in fear, pain, and agony because of a person that has nothing better to do than to mistreat a child. The most important factor to getting a job is the ammount of education that you have. First of all, you need a job to get money, and the better the job, the more money you get. A good factor to helping others is actually being a part of the community and having the time to volenteer to fix or even make your community even better.
ReplyDeleteThere are a lot of social issues that affect Washington Heights, such as violnce, discrimination,low education rate teenagers doing drugs and bullying. The main one that really stands out to be common in washington heights it drugs and teens. Most teens in Washington heights do drugs of some sort, most common marijuana. The other one that stands out to me is low education rate. Most people in Washington heights are immigrants from a latino/a race. 1/5 parents who are latino/a graduate from high school.This affects the children because it does not show a good example, however it might encourage others to want to be succesfull.
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ReplyDeleteMoney is the most important factor to getting a job. This is important because without money how would you be able to support yourself. Also without money you can’t help other people. It is the most important reason for a job. This blue globe we live in basically runs on green so the more you have the better you are in life.
ReplyDeleteI would not be willing to being a community organizer. I don't like helping, beside one social issue I really find important and care about is education and how the way schools run should be change and I don't know how I can do anything about that or how becoming a community organizer would help. When looking for a job, the most important factor for me is the money, because money is what plays the bills, buys you things, keeps your business going, the impacted you done on people don't and with the more money the more you can help people, at the end it always come to money.
ReplyDeleteI think the most important factor for a job is the money. At the end of the day the money your job provides is the one that helps you live a life that nourishes. I feel that now people only work for money so that they can support their families. So it is not a possibility that a person will get a job that doesn't pay them good enough and therefore can't support oneself.
ReplyDelete*I understand these points may diverge from the topic at sometimes but just hang in there and know that their essential for understanding the thinking behind my arguments.*
ReplyDeleteI would like to start off by applauding Mr.Rallins for his great accomplishments and his ability to give back to local communities by becoming a community organizer. The reason I applaud Mr.Rallins is because becoming a community organizer is something I would never do. Mr.Rallins reminds me of the many people who have been told that when you grow up you can do anything you want to. And many of those kids grow up to become adults that go to college to try to obtain an education because we are taught that’s the first step to obtaining that goal which as we push ahead with it we begin to see its more of a dream then a goal. This idea of having the ability to do anything becomes for the most a plan to change, not only to change but to improve communities. But the problem is that there’s no manual on how to change the world and college doesn’t give the manual on this it only give you clue to where it might be and as a result many of that these educated adults settle into this belief of I can change the world by impacting a life or community one at a time. This because their idea was opposed one time to many; However in reality that’s just not quick enough or how the kids in my class would say “Ain’t nobody got time for that,” one person or community at a time won’t stop the prevalent social issues that get worse by the second. No I am not saying that Mr.Rallins is not going to make a difference or impact the community in which he chooses to become a community organizer in but what I am saying is that he alone can’t compete with the social issues that affect us and our communities today.
You ask what are the most important factors in getting a job today, and the only serious answer that I can up with is what do you think? We are in a neighborhood where 35% of the population is below the poverty line. The only real answer to what are the most important factors to getting a job is money for people that come from an impoverished neighborhood, because the truth be told the main concern for everyone especially the people from low-income families and impoverished neighborhoods is to get educated and get a job yet the success of that person is measured in materialist ways such as net worth. To those who say that’s not true think about this would you rather feel better going into an investment knowing your fellow investor is Bill Gates or a potato farmer? What I’m trying to say is that people may say they care about helping others and some even try to believe it but in reality you can’t care about helping people without thinking of money because after you take the job and say you’re going to help people you think now how much money can I count on to do this. This is one of the reasons why I agree with Xavier’s statement that at the end of the day it comes to money.
The way I would try to truly help the social issues that affect Washington Heights is by educating myself and by either climbing the political ladder to one day be the one signing a bill into office or by climbing the corporate ladder to one be the donor that gets the person who signs the bill into office. Earlier I said the reason I applaud Mr.Rallins is because he took a different approach at tackling a social issue which some people may think is the better approach because being a community organizer one is on the ground involved with the people took but that’s actually called the passive approach but he did not give up which is something worthy of The New York Times apparently. What people have to note is that the only way we can solve these social issues like the 45.7% of children in Washington Heights who are not proficient in English. Issues like this one is not going to be solved overnight nor with a community organizer making afterschool literacy programs, its going to be solved with a complete overhaul of the English curriculum in city maybe even a complete overhaul of the whole education system with I’m for 100%. My message is community organizers is get a better job and start by hitting the steps of Capitol Hill to start a change because even Obama noticed the only way to make change is influence it at the highest level and not your common council men or representative but higher up in government like speaker of the house or hey even president if Obama got reelected what’s to say you can’t become our next president? And actually solve social issues not put a Band-Aid on them like community organizers do.
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ReplyDeleteWell to start off i would just like to say i agree with Yarlin,Randy and Xavier. The reason to why is because although helping is a great benefit to all and its something i would do.Money overall is needed , this is true because at the end of the day money is what provides you a living it supports you and would definetly benefit others also.Like Xavier said "money is what pays the bills" to create a life and be able to be successful you need a way to be sustained and money is a important factor, Because lets be reasonable if you work in a job that doesnt get you money how are you going to be able to support yourself none the less support another person we need to think here.If you work and could maintain yourself then you could nourish others because if someone needs help to buy food for their children because they cant afford it unfortanetly the food wont be given to you free.You need money to buy it and if others have it they can help you with what they have.My opinion overall is that great its a good idea you want to be a community organizer but in between money is an important factor to help you out to maintain a nourished community because if there no money really it will be hard to keep on because you need to think when you are in a low income family, people are looking for help but the help is for getting a good job to sustain themselves because without money how are you going to move on and create a living for you and your family. Many of you say that money isnt really important but actually helping out, but if you think about it to help someone who needs a home you need money to pay their rent for them to have a place to live or even simply to eat you need to buy the ingredients. So unfortanetly helping is a great factor but to get somewhere you need money to sustain that.
ReplyDeleteI would love to help the social groups because I dont like to be lazy and have nothing to do... and i'm willing to do anything for them, especially if that organization help me get into college....
ReplyDeleteTo begin with money is not the important thing in order to make someone's life different. Personally, I would call my self middle class, right now people are below or higher than others but who cares the important thing is that someone want to make a difference in someone life. Right now in New York City, there's many social issues that are impacted people life. Helping someone in your community or your community overall with such a positive attitude and the passion for making someone's life a difference. I love helping people, yes, I might not have a lot of money, but when it comes to helping I just go with out thinking the reward at the end. And, yes I would love to be a community memeber that is really going to make people's life a difference
ReplyDeleteMoney is always a touche subject because some people want money,but others will do it for no money. I think if you want a org. to pay you for you services to let say a homeless, and you work really hard all the time and you show up almost every day,do you really want the money isn't better to work for free. But since people need money for lots of things so is it really necessary to get money. I think its the government fault because they control the spending on the country and if we do bad then its there fault.
ReplyDeleteI think that this is the governments fault as well because they control everything that has to do with money, and whenever something is bought it goes straight to them. If its hard to get a job then that's because the government doesn't want to. Everything always comes down to money, but at the end of the day it's hard to get. Overall i agreed with c.jorge
ReplyDeleteThe most important thing in a job is money. Money because money is the only way to buy stuff you want and to survive. Without money people would die slowly and also nobody will be helping each other.
ReplyDeleteThe most important thing in a job is money. Money because money is the only way to buy stuff you want and to survive. Without money people would die slowly and also nobody will be helping each other.
ReplyDeleteThere are many social issues that affect Washington Heights. For example, domestic violence,drugs, and homelessness. Many of these problems always lead to them going to jail some kind of way and that's why I decided to get involved with the organization Critical Resistance because all of those people can get help and they can have a future. Things will never be perfect because perfect is an illusion but things can be improved.
ReplyDeleteThere are many issues that affect our community in Washington Heights. One way is that people are getting addicted to drugs witch isnt good for them. Thats one of the many issues we have in Washington Heights.
ReplyDeleteI would like to be a community organizer because a big social issue that goes on everywhere is bullying/harassment and its not getting much attention to it, and is one of the most issues that teens are affected by.The most important factor of getting a job is assuring you can get the job and you leave the employer with a good impression so that you can have any future chances of getting the job if you didn't get it now.Washington is being affected by teen consuming drugs and alcohol and bullying. Ive personally experienced both of them in different circumstances.
ReplyDeleteYes i would be a community organizer because there are many social issues that are going on in the world like bullying and homelessness and their not getting any attention. Bullying is what most teens and students are affected by. Also many people do it but they don't realize that it harms people until the victim commits suicide. I think the most important factor of getting a job is having a good body language. Also leaving a good impression with the person that gave you the interview. Additionally is make sure you dress professional and to be there early rather than late because its better to be early than late. Lastly Washington is affected by bullying and drug use because many teens use it and many teens experience bullying like me ive experienced it and it can happen at anytime anywhere at any age.
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